<div class="gmail_quote"> <blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Ok. I put "data properties" with a high priority on my todo-list. </blockquote> <div> </div> <div>good idea!</div> <blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote"> Tobias Alex Shkotin wrote: <blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Hi Tobias, <div class="im"> thank you for a hand. actually I was just surprised that trans-feature switched off. for me much more important is a lack of data-properties. I was one step away from to show my customer his rdb as knowledge base with reasoning and available over the web. The step - to convert rdb to AceWiki data format. (Well, to have import would be better;) And than I discover an absence of data-properties. It is a pity. Alex </div>2009/7/3 Tobias Kuhn <<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a>>> <div class="im"> Hi Alex, To come back to this earlier message: Basically, I agree that just rejecting statements containing transitivity axioms is not at all a satisfying solution. However, I would like to keep the "showcase" AceWiki application as simple as possible and I don't see a simple and clean way how to deal with those axioms. I have some vague plans to make AceWiki more customizable so that the subset of OWL to be used for reasoning can be changed without changing the source code. At the moment, one would have to change the source code. (If you cannot wait, I can show you which part of source code has to be changed.) Tobias Alex Shkotin wrote: Hi, If Pellet returns error (well, without explanation;) but only in this case it is better to say user a truth: your axiom makes ontology undecidable. try re-formulate or ask support... actually this kind of situation in practice should be very interesting and if user insist then it is time for brain storm;) Alex 2009/7/1 Tobias Kuhn <<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a>> </div> <div> <div></div> <div class="h5"> <mailto:<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a>>>> Hi, Right, Pellet can handle TransitiveObjectProperty as long as the restrictions are not violated. By the way: my link was outdated and they are now called "Global Restrictions on Axioms": <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/#Global_Restrictions_on_Axioms_in_OWL_2_DL" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-syntax/#Global_Restrictions_on_Axioms_in_OWL_2_DL</a> However, once the restrictions are violated, Pellet stops running properly and returns error messages. What should AceWiki do now? How should it inform the users about the problem? In my view, these global restrictions are too complicated to be explained to an average web user. Tobias Alex Shkotin wrote: Hi Tobias, may be it is better to check "Nonstructural Restrictions on Axioms", and disallow TransitiveObjectProperty only in a case of violation. As this kind of reasoning (trans-closure) is one of DL's strong feature. Anyway why not give it to Pellet. I doubt that Pellet ignores TransitiveObjectProperty. Does it? Alex 2009/7/1 Tobias Kuhn <<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:t.kuhn@gmx.ch" target="_blank">t.kuhn@gmx.ch</a>>>>> Hi, Blue bullets mean "is used by the reasoner". Red bullets mean "is not used by the reasoner". The latter is the case for all statements that cannot be translated into OWL or that would use the OWL constructs TransitiveObjectProperty or SubObjectPropertyChain. The problem with these two axiom types is that statements using them can violate the "Nonstructural Restrictions on Axioms": <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-owl2-syntax-20080411/#Nonstructural_Restrictions_on_Axioms" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-owl2-syntax-20080411/#Nonstructural_Restrictions_on_Axioms</a> Since I don't know how to handle these restrictions in a collaborative environment like a wiki, I simply disallow the axiom types that are involved. Thus, the reason why you don't get an answer for questions like "Which continent contains Oslo?" is that the statement "If X is located in Y and Y is located in Z then X is located in Z." is ignored by the reasoner. If you have an idea how TransitiveObjectProperty and SubObjectPropertyChain could be supported in a simple way without the danger to violate these nonstructural restrictions, let me know! Tobias George Herson wrote: I added some sentences to the current Oslo page at <a href="http://attempto.ifi.uzh.ch/webapps/acewikigeo/" target="_blank">http://attempto.ifi.uzh.ch/webapps/acewikigeo/</a> and it seems to me that Edit... Add Sentence... Add Comment... Delete Details Logic Oslo is located in which continent ? (no answer found) should find an answer since we have Edit... Add Sentence... Add Comment... Delete Details Logic Norway is located in which continent ? - Europe and rule Edit... Add Sentence... Add Comment... Delete Details Logic If X is located in Y and Y is located in Z then X is located in Z . So sorry, maybe an expert will be more helpful. George ________________________________ From: Alex Shkotin <<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a>>>>> To: George Herson <<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>> </div></div> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>>>>> <div class="im"> Cc: <a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:38:44 PM Subject: Re: [Attempto] AceWiki - how to get explanation of red? yes, I need to say vise versa but have a look at <a href="http://clip2net.com/clip/m3050/1246386847-clip-8kb.png" target="_blank">http://clip2net.com/clip/m3050/1246386847-clip-8kb.png</a> sorry, but after "Which continent is Oslo" there is no continuation:( 2009/6/30 George Herson <<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>> </div> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>>>>> <div class="im"> Re: "Which continent is located in Oslo?", try variations on "Which continent is Oslo located-in?": Oslo is a city, much smaller than a continent. George ________________________________ From: Alex Shkotin <<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a>>> </div> <div class="im"> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a>>>>> To: George Herson <<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>> </div> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>>>>> <div class="im"> Cc: <a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> </div> <div class="im"> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:20:11 PM Subject: Re: [Attempto] AceWiki - how to get explanation of red? Hi George, then why my question (after rule) is without answer? 2009/6/30 George Herson <<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>>> </div> <div class="im"> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>> </div> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gherson@snet.net" target="_blank">gherson@snet.net</a>>>>> <div class="im"> Hi Alex, My guess is that AceWiki bullets are red for rules and blue for facts. George ________________________________ From: Alex Shkotin <<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a>>> </div> <div class="im"> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a> </div> <div class="im"> <mailto:<a href="mailto:alex.shkotin@gmail.com" target="_blank">alex.shkotin@gmail.com</a>>>>> To: <a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>>> </div> <div class="im"> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> </div> <div class="im"> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 12:55:34 PM Subject: [Attempto] AceWiki - how to get explanation of red? Hi, have a look at a picture. how can I tell that red sentence is definition? how can I get an explanation - why the sentence is red? _______________________________________________ attempto mailing list <a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>>> </div> <div class="im"> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a> </div> <div class="im"> <mailto:<a href="mailto:attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch" target="_blank">attempto@lists.ifi.uzh.ch</a>>>> <a href="https://lists.ifi.uzh.ch/listinfo/attempto" target="_blank">https://lists.ifi.uzh.ch/listinfo/attempto</a> </div></blockquote></blockquote></div>