<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">Hello all- First: I was hoping in an academic dialogue related to the importance and use of ACE/Attempto. My previous email to Ted Strauss remained unanswered for 11 days. I hope we can speed up the messaging cycle :) Then: Related to FOL: is there not a need to "cache" the activity of reasoners? (And make it distributable) I would propose to W3C a type of "relation" akin to RDF but between premises and conclusion. (not always a triplet like RDF). Don't you think this could be important for your project? Thank you for your time, ct Still awaiting your point of view on the older messages: On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Christian Tzurcanu <<a href="mailto:christian.tzurcanu@gmail.com" target="_blank">christian.tzurcanu@gmail.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> <div class="h5"> Hi Ted, I am known for writing maybe too much email. So you send this to whoever you know interested. I recall I wanted to implement something along Gellish lines: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gellish" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gellish</a> I quickly became uneasy with the idea that you have to pay to have access to the last version of Gellish among other problems. Now about Ace: 1. It is too bad RDF (or something closely related) does not permit representation of any first-order-logic construct. If you don't have this, how can you make this system distributable? If not distributable it does not encourage croudsourcing and it will become a nightmare to maintain upon growth. 2. Have you thought about using synsets (as in Princeton wordnet) as elements rather than words? Such choice would bring much better translatability in other languages. Plus a lot of semantic calculation comes for free (thought about ingesting the wordnet into Ace?) 3. Is the reasoner distributable? It would be such an extraordinary achievement to have distributable dictionary AND reasoner. The reasoner to communicate to other reasoners to tell the set that is already calculated so there is no overlapping. Is the reasoner discovering all first-order-logic possibilities with every added statement? What is it's performance when having say 1000 potential "discoveries" for 1 ingested statement? 4. Any other efforts you along the lines of ACE? We need ability to use FOL on these controlled vocabularies. I would say: if we solve these above, we can have a very good complimentary technology to fine-indexing and exact translation of information (like I want to do with <a href="http://subject.ro" target="_blank">subject.ro</a> and its R package) Have a meaningful Christmas! Christian On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Christian Tzurcanu <<a href="mailto:christian.tzurcanu@gmail.com" target="_blank">christian.tzurcanu@gmail.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div> <div> <div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> I am not sure if we are all members of the list.. so i replayed all: Did not know about Ace. Wanted to use/implement something similar to an engineering language some time ago. Then I had to return to making sure I have enough nouns. So.. here I am: at controlled vocabularies. Ace would be a very good next step for when we harmonize a bit the ontologies. Now: I modified <a href="http://subject.ro" target="_blank">subject.ro</a> to make it more test-worthy :) And added a new ontology: Terminologia Histologica that my team just finished translating. So let us work on it: 1. Plug it in: use th.rdf as uri for <a href="http://subject.ro" target="_blank">subject.ro</a>: <a href="http://subject.ro/index.php?uri=th.rdf" target="_blank">http://subject.ro/index.php?uri=th.rdf</a> (>From this follows that you can use your own thesaurus for subject) 2. Follow the steps that you find on the "Receive" tab. You will see that, using a different thesaurus, the tech looses ability to resolve titles for messages created with other thesauri. Another known bug: choosing the more general subject does not yet show messages of the subjects under it. Do not worry. It will get fixed soon. Try it anyway and give some feedback. What this tech can do to science? Any scientist will be able to emit and receive on tens of thousands of channels. People will be able to follow info by very refined subject choice rather than by originating publication (journal, news hub), or originating author (twitter), or unclearly-defined terms (search engine) Beware that now the site does not have any user management. When it will have: you will be able to follow also by author's reputation in addition to subject. We really need help to compose the root ontology/thesaurus (the one that has as root "All subjects" or "Everything") that will rout the audience to their respective more refined interests. Lacking this, <a href="http://subject.ro" target="_blank">subject.ro</a> cannot be used by itself: it needs an uri to a SKOS thesaurus. I just emitted on the subject "Adult stem cell" :) on <a href="http://subject.ro/index.php?uri=th.rdf" target="_blank">http://subject.ro/index.php?uri=th.rdf</a> By the way: any list could be emulated by <a href="http://subject.ro" target="_blank">subject.ro</a> and it even can help focus the discussion. Interested people should just build the thesauri for that discussion. Then plug it into the uri variable. Thank you for your interest, Christian Tzurcanu, <a href="http://subject.ro" target="_blank">subject.ro</a> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Ted Strauss <<a href="mailto:ted@trudat.co" target="_blank">ted@trudat.co</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div> <div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> I forgot to include the link about the Attempto controlled english project: <a href="https://app.getsignals.com/link?url=http%3A%2F%2Fattempto.ifi.uzh.ch%2Fsite%2F&ukey=agxzfnNpZ25hbHNjcnhyGAsSC1VzZXJQcm9maWxlGICAgIDmnK4KDA&k=68e1ccc8-9750-410d-d971-615c4d2c36ed" target="_blank">http://attempto.ifi.uzh.ch/site/</a> The ACE wiki is a great example application: <a href="https://app.getsignals.com/link?url=http%3A%2F%2Fattempto.ifi.uzh.ch%2Facewiki%2F&ukey=agxzfnNpZ25hbHNjcnhyGAsSC1VzZXJQcm9maWxlGICAgIDmnK4KDA&k=0f0e0600-bd1e-48f6-ae72-83e4eb3e3715" target="_blank">http://attempto.ifi.uzh.ch/acewiki/</a> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Ted Strauss <<a href="mailto:ted@trudat.co" target="_blank">ted@trudat.co</a>> wrote: -- Ted Strauss <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class="gmail_extra"> <div class="gmail_quote">Hi Christian, This is a fascinating project. Do you have any other publications or documents about it? Have you heard of Attempto controlled english (ACE) project? It is a knowledge representation language that is both human readable and machine readable. It could be a useful example for you term thesaurus. It converts into OWL statments, which is a subset of RDF. I couldn't do much on the <a href="http://subject.ro" target="_blank">subject.ro</a> site. Is there some documentation about how to use this site? The help link doesn't do anything. Good luck with this project. Ted Strauss <a href="https://app.getsignals.com/link?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftrudat.co%2F&ukey=agxzfnNpZ25hbHNjcnhyGAsSC1VzZXJQcm9maWxlGICAgIDmnK4KDA&k=c619ecb0-d242-4b42-ca2a-2f6b4fc346d2" target="_blank">Trudat.co</a> <a href="https://app.getsignals.com/link?url=http%3A%2F%2Fodx.io%2F&ukey=agxzfnNpZ25hbHNjcnhyGAsSC1VzZXJQcm9maWxlGICAgIDmnK4KDA&k=e3256706-c9ed-4cb8-c162-233ac41395d6" target="_blank">odx.io</a> <a href="https://app.getsignals.com/link?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Ftrudatted&ukey=agxzfnNpZ25hbHNjcnhyGAsSC1VzZXJQcm9maWxlGICAgIDmnK4KDA&k=8374d4c8-5452-4157-b0e1-e7df110d04a8" target="_blank">@trudatted</a> <img src="https://app.getsignals.com/img.gif?ukey=agxzfnNpZ25hbHNjcnhyGAsSC1VzZXJQcm9maWxlGICAgIDmnK4KDA&key=2a357851-ab3f-48a6-8a62-15dc6fd719f5" width="1" height="1"> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Peter Murray-Rust <<a href="mailto:pm286@cam.ac.uk" target="_blank">pm286@cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote: -- Ted Strauss <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Christian Tzurcanu <<a href="mailto:christian.tzurcanu@gmail.com" target="_blank">christian.tzurcanu@gmail.com</a>> Date: Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:13 PM Subject: [Open-access] Open Data Access Point in R To: <a href="mailto:open-access@lists.okfn.org" target="_blank">open-access@lists.okfn.org</a> Dear members, My proposal would be to have a thesaurus of navigation for an open data catalog in multiple languages so I can plug it into <a href="http://subject.ro/index.php?uri=uat.rdf" target="_blank" style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">http://subject.ro/index.php?uri=uat.rdf</a> (as a uri) That way we can index data, messages/comments about the data, and offer metadata back into R. 1. Why bring open data to R as a priority? Because R has a very extensive library of algorithms and behavior that complements any data. 2. Why <a href="http://subject.ro/" target="_blank" style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">subject.ro</a>? What is <a href="http://subject.ro/" target="_blank" style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">subject.ro</a> / what it plans to be? We want to make it a general ontology based on the SKOS Thesaurus format. For very easy human-led categorization as well as machine-readable. We plan it as a gateway to liked and open data / indexed by subject. On the web as well as in R. our demo is for the ontology of Astronomy on their draft thesaurus (not completed with all URIs) - so expect bugs from this side.. 3. We would first begin with <a href="http://subject.ro/" target="_blank" style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">subject.ro</a> data and behavior as a "portal" to linked data in R because that will bring in R qualitative dimensions (by controlled vocabularies). R is presently very good for quantitative data but lacks ability to compute semantics. 4. <a href="http://subject.ro/" target="_blank" style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">subject.ro</a> will keep it's data available for replication and synchronization (for now in mysql, but with plans for CouchDB). We will have mobile, desktop apps for interfacing with this data as well as in R and the website. CouchDB is very good for distributed db. We have extensive experience in programming for all platforms: web, mobile, desktop for all operating systems. But we will need more volunteer programmers for faster returns :) Now I would like to talk about what we have already done to see the link to our plans for <a href="http://subject.ro/" target="_blank" style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">subject.ro</a> : in <a href="http://sliced.ro/docs/docs/Science.html" target="_blank" style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">http://sliced.ro/docs/docs/Science.html</a> we have demoed some things that we would like in R: for each thesaurus we propose: -have all terms at singular as number and masculine as gender (for the appropriate languages) -have the least number of words per term (prefer hyphenated and composed word) -have only the eponyms capitalized -prefer the same number of words per term as the English term -prefer to include in the term part of the inheritance (a term should uniquely-define the reality without the need to know it's ancestry in the graph) or have 2 versions of the thesauri: one with intrinsic identity and one with possible extrinsic identity -there should be just one preferred term for each language -we also have to know for each term if it has single or multiple inheritance We should talk about each rule and I will tell you why I have reached these conclusions. They are not the only possible solution. Each language should have a function with the ability to form term's plural and feminine forms. There should be a function that takes in a text and a language code and be able to compile a list of terms it contains. There should be a function that takes in a text, a language and a target language. It will return an exact translation for controlled terms and an approximate translation of the rest using Google Translate. As for Semantic Web processing: For any text+language: There should be a function that returns the greater common term: the term that contains all the other mentioned terms. There should be a function that returns the smallest distinctors (an invented idea): the terms that are the most detailed (the leaves in the thesaurus graph) Thesauri data and all these functions should be available in R (in the <a href="http://subject.ro/" target="_blank" style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">subject.ro</a> package). We need scientific guidance on where this technology should lead and what usecases can be derived. Please feedback. Christian Tzurcanu, <a href="http://subject.ro" target="_blank" style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">subject.ro</a> _______________________________________________ open-access mailing list <a href="mailto:open-access@lists.okfn.org" target="_blank">open-access@lists.okfn.org</a> <a href="https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-access" target="_blank">https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-access</a> Unsubscribe: <a href="https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/open-access" target="_blank">https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/open-access</a> -- Peter Murray-Rust Reader in Molecular Informatics Unilever Centre, Dep. Of Chemistry University of Cambridge CB2 1EW, UK <a href="tel:%2B44-1223-763069" value="+441223763069" target="_blank">+44-1223-763069</a> _______________________________________________ open-science mailing list <a href="mailto:open-science@lists.okfn.org" target="_blank">open-science@lists.okfn.org</a> <a href="https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-science" target="_blank">https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/open-science</a> Unsubscribe: <a href="https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/open-science" target="_blank">https://lists.okfn.org/mailman/options/open-science</a> <div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote> </div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>Co-founder of <a href="http://trudat.co/" target="_blank">Trudat.co</a> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> </div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote>Co-founder of <a href="http://trudat.co/" target="_blank">Trudat.co</a> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> </div></div> </blockquote></div></div></div> </blockquote></div></div></div></div></div> </div></div> </blockquote></div></div></div></div> </blockquote></div> </div></div>